Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Oct 5, 2004 8:48:55 GMT -5
Yeah man, that is too sad about the Sea Turtles... You bring up a good point Kit but I think there is another problem especially in third world countries that I dont think even education can solve: and that is tradition! A lot of these countries believe and use animals for food/medicine and I feel people have a REALLY difficult time with change and even more so when they feel it is part of their upbringing/tradition! Now, I dont mean for this to sound like an excuse for them because there is none, we as humans have no right in wiping out an entire species, no matter what tradition says!
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Oct 5, 2004 22:15:57 GMT -5
I hadn't thought about the effects of tradition, and that's a good point. Still, I think it comes down to the same thing - changing their minds would be more effective than passing laws, it's just a law harder to do. In the same way, passing laws in a community like that is also very difficult (not to mention enforcing them), so it's a bad situation all around. There really isn't an easy solution, unfortunately. Did any of you guys happen to take notes at the last meeting? I didn't have a pen or paper with me, and I can't remember the dates for the various activities (pronghorn, bald eagle, bats, etc.). I have to get my work availability in for next week and I wanted to see if there are any dates I should request off. If any of you can help me out with that information I'd be most grateful. ~_^
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Oct 7, 2004 18:16:54 GMT -5
Man, this tradition topic is worth a thread of its own!!! Tradition in itself is a very interesting subject in regards to endangered/threatend species. Most of the time it helps the species, due to the importance of that particular species (or life in general) to that culture, but on occassion it has brought some species to the brink of extinction. I think largely though its the illegal trade in animal product merchandise that is responsible for species destruction, not some traditional acts such as hunting/fishing (that are sustainable and not wasteful in any way), and this illegal trade aspect would be more of a sign of corruption of that culture through outside demands/ideologies (i.e the need to make money, be successful, etc.) and not some value that the culture already intrinsicly had. I won't turn this into a debate on capitalism or anything, but the lure of the dollar does indeed make all life very cheap. The solution to this may lie in an actual change in what one considers valuable, which is something that seems virtually impossible to effect (like you guys were saying). Its been done before though, as history shows us, so perhaps it can be done again. You guys got my brain thinking hard on this. Thanks!
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Oct 7, 2004 18:40:21 GMT -5
(I swear I'll put good news on here one day!!!! ) See, I told you I'd put some good news on...well here it goes: Feds Plan Removal of Yellowstone Grizzlies from Endangered Species List Citing the presence of 400 to 600 grizzlies in Yellowstone National Park and the surrounding area, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has begun the process of removing that population of bears from the endangered species list. According to the service, the Yellowstone area has reached its carrying capacity for the large predators. Grizzlies in other parts of the country will retain endangered species protections. But three cheers for the Yellowstone Grizz!!
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Oct 7, 2004 18:57:52 GMT -5
Man, this tradition topic is worth a thread of its own!!! Tradition in itself is a very interesting subject in regards to endangered/threatend species. Most of the time it helps the species, due to the importance of that particular species (or life in general) to that culture, but on occassion it has brought some species to the brink of extinction. I think largely though its the illegal trade in animal product merchandise that is responsible for species destruction, not some traditional acts such as hunting/fishing (that are sustainable and not wasteful in any way), and this illegal trade aspect would be more of a sign of corruption of that culture through outside demands/ideologies (i.e the need to make money, be successful, etc.) and not some value that the culture already intrinsicly had. I won't turn this into a debate on capitalism or anything, but the lure of the dollar does indeed make all life very cheap. The solution to this may lie in an actual change in what one considers valuable, which is something that seems virtually impossible to effect (like you guys were saying). Its been done before though, as history shows us, so perhaps it can be done again. You guys got my brain thinking hard on this. Thanks! I'd have to disagree that the lure of the dollar makes life very cheap. Why? I strongly believe that those people already feel that life is cheap, which is why they are eploiting it to make money. I believe this is so becase, even if our capatalist society, we have many private organizations spending money in order to protect animals. Of course the lure of money does cause these people who don't highly value life to have a reason to act wrongfully. To reply to that (in defense of capatalism - a stance I often take), I'd say that if there weren't a market for the illegal hides/medicines/meat/etc than they would have no reason to slaughter the animals. So once again the problem comes down to the market, which is fueld by tradition or lack of education. Capatalism has a way of getting people what they want, even if what they want is illegal, and even if the society in which they live isn't fuled primarily by capatalism. That's why I strongly believe that we should make our priority to change the beliefs of the people rather than restricting the money-makers with laws and punishments (although that can be an appropriate action as well). Also it's important to realize that the poachers, shippers, and distributors of rare animals, while doing bad things, might not be all that bad themselves - especially in third world countries. Some of these people, due to oppresive governments and horrible economies, are barely getting by, and they're just doing what they can to survive. Sometimes we see them as villians (and admittingly it can be hard not to), but they're just people trying to make a living. So again - if we change the environment and beliefs, the problem can be much more effectively solved. Still not an easy task, by any means. Note: Had you said the *love* of money makes life cheap, I'd have agreed with you. But the lure of money, nah, that's something we all have to some extent - but it doesn't make us go out and kill animals. But loving money more than you love life - that's where the problem comes in. And that's the fault of the individual, not capatalism. Just my two cents. =) *edit* Oh yeah, that's cool about the bears. Thanks for letting us know. ^_^ Where do you get this info? Have a good website or anything?
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Oct 7, 2004 22:45:56 GMT -5
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Oct 8, 2004 1:20:30 GMT -5
Thanks for responding Kitfox and Stinger. And thanks for the congrats on the Jaguar Stinger (hey, what do you think of the new pawprints by the way?). I'd have to disagree that the lure of the dollar makes life very cheap. Why? I strongly believe that those people already feel that life is cheap, which is why they are eploiting it to make money. I believe this is so becase, even if our capatalist society, we have many private organizations spending money in order to protect animals. I'd have to say that the protection of life was a long time in the making for our particular culture. Now that we are one of the privlaged, and few, "first world" countries, we do have the luxury of focusing on the apparent and obvious and altruistic deeds. However, this was not the case in our history. In fact, up until recent history we still viewed the world as a limitless resource. Our own North American extinctions occured because of misinformations, narrow-minded thinking and especially the all-mighty dollar. Some would argue (not me) that the open-mindedness it takes to reach a balance with the natural world, while maintaining a comfortable life, is only had by the privlaged (like much of America) whereas the rest of the poor world is still trying to catch up. This makes some sense when you think about it, and look past the immediate flaws, because our budding capitalist culture of the past did just as many attrocites to wildlife and the land as some cultures do today. Of course the lure of money does cause these people who don't highly value life to have a reason to act wrongfully. To reply to that (in defense of capatalism - a stance I often take), I'd say that if there weren't a market for the illegal hides/medicines/meat/etc than they would have no reason to slaughter the animals. So once again the problem comes down to the market, which is fueld by tradition or lack of education. Capatalism has a way of getting people what they want, even if what they want is illegal, and even if the society in which they live isn't fuled primarily by capatalism. That's why I strongly believe that we should make our priority to change the beliefs of the people rather than restricting the money-makers with laws and punishments (although that can be an appropriate action as well). Are the moneymakers not in equal (if not more) control of the market then the consumers? I understand the basic premise that without the consumers, the market would collapse, but do we as the consumers not basically work for the "market" in order to purchase things from the "market", leaving the moneymakers to be in control? Perhaps I am rambling....sorry about that kitfox....I'll move on. (Sorry too moderator! Didn't mean to take a massive non-wildlife tangent! ) if we change the environment and beliefs, the problem can be much more effectively solved. Any ideas? Note: Had you said the *love* of money makes life cheap, I'd have agreed with you. But the lure of money, nah, that's something we all have to some extent - but it doesn't make us go out and kill animals. But loving money more than you love life - that's where the problem comes in. And that's the fault of the individual, not capatalism. I don't know Kitfox, I've known a few folks with a healthy love of money, and they are relativley harmless. It is something they are familiar with, something they have, and something they have known for a while. When I say "lure" of money, I refer to folks who may not have ever really had it before, but feel like they need it. Why do they feel like that? I am admittedly not a full-fledged capitalist, I see some benifts to its methods, but I also see some madness, and to me I feel like the change you are suggesting has happened recently. To change someones beliefs is no easy task indeed (like you said), but we have somehow changed folks minds about the idea of capitalism. But its not the seemingly flawless, well-oiled machine of capitalism we exibit today.......its the raw, untamed, ultra-destructive capitalism that we had in the past. Its a pretty decent system once you get passed the mess that occured before the decency set in. As we first try to be successful by making money, finding a needed niche (market), and being competitive (which these are all premises of capitalism, right?), its the rest of the world that pays, including wildlife. Whew........sorry bout all that mess! Hope it makes some kind of sense. And I'll get you the listservs I am on for all that info I get. But I need to take a typing break and get some sleep . Good night everyone........
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Oct 8, 2004 10:09:19 GMT -5
Kitfox....... Here are a couple listservs I joined that are great when it comes to reporting tragedies and successes in the world of wildlife. The Defenders of Wildlife send out the Denlines newsletter (mostly about predators) The Southwest Center for Biologic Diversity send out a couple of things, Action Alerts (where you can e-mail the government and what not), and a wildlife recovery update newsletter (mainly for the Southwest) High Country News is a pretty interesting one, not entirely wildlife though, but it usually has something about wildlife in the West. And finnaly, the AZGFD puts out a pretty good Wildlife News Newsletter for hunters...... .....a watchable Wildlife Newsletter for non-game wildlife in AZ..... ....and an Endangered Species Update for AZ too (with a great Mexican Wolf Recovery Update Section. Hope that helps man. I'll see you all when I get back! Have a great weekend!
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Oct 8, 2004 10:13:26 GMT -5
Sir Sting, I'll have to check out that movie, man. Thanks for the info! Have fun birding this weekend!
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Oct 8, 2004 13:54:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the links and stuff Crow. I'll be checking those out soon enough. =) Now to reply to our little debate thingy and hopefully stay on topic. ^_^ Thanks for responding Kitfox and Stinger. And thanks for the congrats on the Jaguar Stinger (hey, what do you think of the new pawprints by the way?). Yeah, congrats! And I don't remember what the old pawprints looked like, but the new ones are cool none-the-less. =) Actually, the consumers are in control. In fact, we have far more control that we give ourselves credit for - which is unfortunate. If the consumers are unhappy about the way a moneymaker is doing things, all that have to do is stop buying his products or services, and the moneymaker either has to change what he's doing or he goes out of business. The problem is that people just don't know about what's going on, or they don't care - and that they expect government and higher organizations to solve these problems for them. That's why I strongly believe that education and awareness is the key here. Well, nothing specific, but hopefully when I get out of school I'll be in more of a position to do something about it. We'd have to start off small, of course. I was thinking about creating a web page focusing on animals and current events involving animals to try and build awareness. I've gotten ok and building and marketing websites, so it might be a little something I can do if time allows. Yeah, I may have mispoke when I said that the love of money is inherintly a problem. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that it can be a problem when that love of money becomes too high a priority. As far as captalism goes - any economic system, be it democracy, capatalism, communism, or anarchy, will only be as strong as the people within it. No system is perfect because people aren't perfect. However, taking into account that the world is filled with imperfect people, capatalism will work the best - although there will be flaws. All those problems you mention are indeed problems, but they are rooted in the people rather than in capatalism. Again, that's why I believe that we should build awareness and education. Another thing to mention is that capatalism will always exist - only sometimes its left to bloom freely and other times it is restricted. Even where communism prevails you will still have people who want to trade something for something else. That's all captalism is at its heart. There's nothing inheritly wrong with that, is there? It's two people who both want something that the other person has, and they trade so that both can be happy. This isn't a bad thing, but people can use it wrongly if what they want is wrong. But again, the thing we need to change is the people as that will be most effective. People will always find a way to get what they want, restrictions or not. Restrictions might help a little, but only a little, and often times they cause more problems than they solve (look at the drug war, for instance). The key is changing what the people want, not stopping them from getting it. And yes, it's definitely not easy, but at least it has a chance of working. =) Wow...I'm rambling. Sorry about that. @_@
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Oct 8, 2004 19:40:22 GMT -5
Here is something I read on Yahoo, I know it is off the debate we have going but I thought maybe y'all would want to read it.
U.S. Wildlife Refuges Facing Threats
TUCSON, Ariz. - A sweeping wildlife preserve in southwestern Arizona is among the nation's 10 most endangered refuges, due in large part to illegal drug and immigrant traffic and Border Patrol operations, a conservation group said Friday. The Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge, home to the endangered Sonoran pronghorn, has been damaged by excessive human presence, according to a report by Defenders of Wildlife. The report calls for construction of a vehicle barrier on the southern edge of the refuge along the Mexican border.
"We're trying to highlight the fact how special this place is, but it's also at a crossroads," said Noah Matson, a Defenders of Wildlife director in Washington who wrote "Refuges at Risk: America's Ten Most Endangered National Wildlife Refuges 2004."
Arizona has become the nation's busiest entry point for illegal immigrants from Mexico. High-speed off-road chases, abandoned vehicles and damage to fragile desert landscapes have resulted. In 2001, Cabeza became the site of Arizona's deadliest border crossing, when 14 people died after temperatures soared to 115 degrees.
"In an attempt to curb illegal border crossings and prevent further deaths, border officials have established permanent camps in the refuge, incongruous with this once-pristine and remote place, but reflecting the intensity of the problem," the report said.
A call to the Border Patrol office in Tucson was not immediately returned Friday.
The 10 wildlife preserves cited Friday face some common threats, including nearby development, pollution and invasive species, according to the report. Escalating industrial and corporate development close to and even inside refuges is the most pervasive threat, now that about three dozen refuges have more than 1,800 active oil and gas wells, the report said.
Besides Cabeza, the preserves on the list: Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, Alaska; Delta National Wildlife Refuge, Louisiana; Desert National Wildlife Refuge Complex, Nevada; Don Edwards San Francisco Bay National Wildlife Refuge, California; Klamath Basin National Wildlife Refuges, Oregon and California; Lostwood National Wildlife Refuge, North Dakota; Lower Rio Grande Valley National Wildlife Refuge, Texas; Pocosin Lakes National Wildlife Refuge, North Carolina; and Upper Mississippi River National Fish and Wildlife Refuge, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa.
The United States has 540 wildlife refuges encompassing nearly 100 million acres. Half of the endangered refuges in Friday's report are in the West.
Roger Di Rosa, Cabeza Prieta's manager, said the report is right about the threat to the refuge. Officials estimate the population of Sonoran pronghorns at 30 to 40 animals at most.
"The border issue is convoluted, and very complex," he said. "The solution to the border problems is not on the border; it's in Washington, D.C., and Mexico City. So we're just putting a Band-Aid on the wound to stanch the blood. It's a difficult situation."
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Oct 9, 2004 19:44:55 GMT -5
Montana Moves to Resume Bison Hunting
BILLINGS, Mont. - On a spring day in 1990, there was chaos near the border of Yellowstone National Park.
Bison were running. Hunters were facing off with activists who were trying to keep them from killing the bison. And D.J. Schubert was in the thick of it, leading the protesters.
Cameras captured it all, igniting a public outrage that Schubert believes ultimately led the state a year later to halt bison hunting. Today, the wildlife biologist and his fellow activists promise the same craziness — including more bad publicity for Montana — if the state allows hunting to resume this winter, as planned.
"Once again, you're going to give the state of Montana and hunters a black eye," Schubert, of The Fund for Animals, said Friday. "It's going to be an embarrassment for the state and hunters."
Mike Mease of the Buffalo Field Campaign agrees. He's planning to document the hunt himself.
"I can guarantee you lawsuits. I can guarantee you public outcry," Mease said. "These animals are sacred to a lot of people."
The controversy heats up each winter when the bison leave Yellowstone in search of food. Ranchers in Montana worry the bison will transmit brucellosis, which can cause cattle to abort. Activists counter that there's no proof that bison can spread the disease to cattle in the wild.
Several state and federal agencies allow bison that wander out of the park to be captured and tested brucellosis. Bison that test positive are sent to slaughter.
Some hunters believe they should have the opportunity to take a rare trophy if bison are to be killed anyway. Wildlife commissioners agree — barely, voting 3-2 this week to allow bison hunting to resume for a monthlong season tentatively set to start in January. Future hunts would go from mid-November to mid-February, with the number of permits varying each year.
About 670 bison were killed in hunts in the 1980s — most in the winter of 1988-89. The hunts drew outrage in part because of the way they were conducted. Wardens led each hunter to a bison, peacefully grazing when it was shot at close range.
Just 18 were killed the following two winters, the department said, but the hunts stayed in the news. Many felt the negative publicity hurt Montana's tourism industry.
Montana lawmakers stopped the hunting in 1991, changing it from sport to a disease control program implemented by state and federal officials.
This time around, promises Pat Flowers of the state wildlife department, the hunt will be a true hunt.
"In order to re-engage sportsmen in managing bison," Flowers said, "I think it's important to offer them an opportunity to hunt bison."
Though interest is bound to be high, support is not unanimous among hunters. Some such as Craig Sharpe of the Montana Wildlife Federation fear the hunts could hurt their image.
"The hunters of Montana don't want to be caught in this whirlwind and be the bad guy," Sharpe said.
And Mease of the Buffalo Field Campaign vows his group will scrutinize the hunts. "This," Mease said, "is no longer a little slipped-under-the-carpet Montana issue."
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Oct 11, 2004 16:46:23 GMT -5
Kitfox I think we are on the same page more so than not. There are still some philosophical things we slightly disagree on, I could right a few paragraphs on the notion of changing what people want, and the baggage and instant rebellion that goes along with that. But more so I want to let you know I agree with you full heartedly that education is an intergral part to helping wildlife. In fact, I believe it is the most important part. Education has so many flaws in it, so much ultra-optimistic ideals that do not hold up to realistic standards, but I will devote my entire life to helping educate folks on the importance of our wildlife. I have the utmost respect for you to help educate, and I know you know that it is just one piece of the puzzle, defenitly the biggest piece but a piece nonetheless. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help with your website. Stigner: Man, thanks for all the info bro! I have to ask what all the hunters among our forum think about this bison hunt issue?
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Oct 11, 2004 18:39:40 GMT -5
Well, I think you know how I feel about this type of Bison hunt, Crow! Whether it is in Montana or here on Raymond Ranch, I dont like the idea of driving up to the heard and having someone point out an animal that is only 20 or so yards away and me pulling the trigger and if I by chance miss (unlikely.. ;D ;D) I have another or two chances at it because the herd wont run away! I do however understand why these hunts are provided, the herd could not survive on its own if the numbers were not thinned in some way and since the massive animals have no natural predators, well I guess it is our responsibility. Especially since it was man that all but wiped this animal off the face of the Earth. Now if I had to hunt a bull that was off the ranch, one that I had to track and shoot myself, that would be a different story! Just one hunter's opinion!
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Oct 11, 2004 19:01:57 GMT -5
Now for some good news on the global front:
New Effort to Target Illegal Ivory Sales
BANGKOK, Thailand - The African elephant got a new line of defense against poachers Monday after a global wildlife conference approved measures aimed at wiping out the continent's illegal ivory trade.
A majority of the representatives of the 166 signatory countries of the U.N. Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, or CITES, agreed on the plan to eradicate illicit ivory sales.
The initiative calls for new law enforcement links between African countries, the global police agency Interpol, customs officials and airlines that might handle shipments of smuggled ivory, said John M. Sellar, a CITES senior enforcement officer.
"This isn't just an African problem," he told reporters. "This was a big move forward today, a real commitment by the world that we should stretch and make sure we stop this illegal trade once and for all."
Conservation groups say Thailand is Asia's largest buyer of illegal African ivory, which is carved into Buddha statues, rings, chopsticks, bangles and other items sold to tourists and businesspeople from Asia, Europe and the United States.
Earlier Monday, the delegates dismissed Namibia's request for a partial lifting of the ban to allow it to export 4,410 pounds of ivory annually from elephants that died naturally.
Meanwhile, conservationists decried an accord by which the Caspian Sea nations that produce most of the world's caviar would cut their 2004 exports of the gourmet fish eggs in an effort to stabilize the industry and promote sustainable supplies.
Azerbaijan, Iran, Kazakhstan, the Russian Federation and Turkmenistan account for about 90 percent of the world's caviar supply.
The combined 2004 export quota for Beluga caviar — that comes from the rarest and most valuable of all sturgeon — is 9,755 pounds, a 50 percent decrease from 2003, CITES announced. It said 2004 levels would be taken as a base for negotiating future quotas.
Conservationists said the 2004 quota was introduced after the year's fishing season had finished, rendering it largely symbolic.
"It makes a mockery of the entire process," said Ellen Pikitch, professor and executive director of the University of Miami's Pew Institute for Ocean Science.
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