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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 28, 2004 12:10:48 GMT -5
I would have to say that I'd rather hunt for my meat. Knowing that cows have been bred in mass just to be slain and packaged for these huge grocery stores is more upsetting to me. You touch on a good point there, and one of the main reasons I support hunting for food purposes. The meat industry in America is insanley gruesome and heartless, not only to the animals it slaughters for our benifit, but to the wildlife in the area as well. There are some different types of farming out there that address some of these problems, and for a little more money, you could buy hormone free meat, cage free meat and eggs, as well as predator-safe beef (where they use non-lethal means of keeping predators away from the livestock). To me, it's worth it to spend a little more on these types of meat if I have the money. Nice point Chrom. Well, I have kind of a serious question here, but I don't want to put anyone on the spot while I ask it. I have a big problem with folks that kill Coyotes simply because they see one. You know, the type of folk who regrets that they did not have a rifle when they saw a coyote in the woods. The Coyote is the one animal that I know a lot about, and to me, it is one of the most important predators that exists, especially in Arizona where droughts and heavy seasonal rains occur regularly. They are also extremely intellegent and rank up there with dolphins and primates. Now, I refuse to insult folks who practice this sort of thing, or turn a conversation into a battleground, but I just need to know why they do it? And, if someone does do it here on the forum (or doesn't have a problem with it), would you be willing to conversate about it?
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Nov 28, 2004 15:51:29 GMT -5
Before addressing the coyote thing, I have a question. What's the hormone-free thing all about? The rest I can get, but what exactly is the practice you're referring to when you say you purchase hormone-free meat?
Now for the coyotes. I hadn't realized that people killing coyotes was an issue, to be honest. If people kill the coyotes that are probably doing so based on a misunderstanding of the animals. Some coyotes kill livestock and that sort of thing, and so they might think that killing a coyote is doing the world some sort of favor.
We raise livestock at my house, and lately a lot of the birds have been being killed by what is probably a single coyote. They've killed several of my grandpa's prize turkeys, chickens, guinea hens, and our 'pet' geese, peacocks, and duck are in danger as well. He's got his rifle ready and he wouldn't hesitate to kill the coyote if he saw it on his land. It's unfortunate, but I wouldn't hold it against him. He'd only be protecting his best interests and property.
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 28, 2004 18:03:35 GMT -5
Kitfox - Most cattle and other livestock are given frequent injections of hormones to make them grow faster, or to make certain edible parts of the body grow to enourmous proportions or better production (like milk). Livestock is also given immense doses of antibiotics on a frequent basis as well because the horrendous conditions that they live in are vectors for many diseases and sickness. All these chemicals, especially the rampant hormone doses, not only effect the livestock heavily, but have been proven to mess with human hormone processes too if we consume a lot of the meat. These effects can be subtle but they exist nonetheless (especially in regards to women). So the hormone free products do not give artifical growth hormones to their animals, nor do they give constant antibiotic doses (because the living conditions are better for the animals). This of course usually only applies to the large meat, egg, and milk producers of the world. Hope that helped! There are a lot of scientific publications on the negative effects of artifical hormones out there too that are pretty easily accesible.
Please, as you read the following, know I would never have anything but the utmost respect for your family. Your family and mine are very similar in the way they choose to live....... Coyotes do kill livestock, no doubt about it, I too have lost many a chicken back in the day to a coyote passing by (but I lost more to my dogs actually). I couldn't fault anyone for trying to protect their food source or their way of life, nor would I argue with them the merits or consequences of killing a coyote, because I think it may be something that they felt they had to do in order to protect what is theirs. What I would argue though is that to best protect the livestock, killing coyotes is not very helpful. First off, coyotes have been proven time and time again to be compensatory reproducers! This is fairly rare in the mammal world, but coyotes are one of the best defenitions of it. If coyotes are killed off in an area, there will always be a massive increase in coyotes there the following year. Say there were 100 coyotes around your land, and though that may seem like a lot, the population was probably pretty stable. If you killed 75 of them (which is pretty damn good), the ones that remained would more than likely double the original population in a very short time. Female coyotes can actually determine the number of pups they will have based on current coyote populations in the area! A stable populations may produce 1-2 pups per litter, a heavily hunted populations will always produce 7-8 pups per litter. Thus killing them is not the answer, beyond all the good they do for your land (rodent and other farm "pests" removal especially), it only puts a small and easily fillable dent in the population as a whole. The best way to handle the problem isn't to modify the behavior of the coyote, it is to modify the behavior of a human. Better protection for the animals would be the first thing on the list. If it is birds that are being killed (and I assume they are in a coup), than build a better coup. If they are not in a coup, then put them in one, and make it as large as needed. As far as other livestock goes, Coyotes can't kill large animals, but they will take newborns, therefore it may be wise to quarantine pregnent cattle or what not in a protected area, corral etc., until the baby is able to run on its own. These things may take a little work, but they are 100 times more effective than killing a compensatory reproducer. Finally, one thing that seems to work above all the rest is protection of a specific sort. Guard Llamas for instance are a great way to go, and Llamas can be readily adopted for free at a lot of places (let me know if your interested). Llamas are also no different to feed then cattle or sheep, so putting them in a herd of livestock would not increase the cost necessarily of upkeep. They are extremely effective in warding off coyotes. There is a paper by Meadows and Knowlton (2000) about Guard Llamas that is a great one if you can find it online. They took a poll on ranchers attitudes towards Guard Llamas effectiveness before they had one and the vast majority said they either had no opinion on them, or they thought they were not effective. They were then given Llamas and after a year or so, the majority then said they were very effective. A sheep farmer who had a huge flock for instance had lost about 128 sheep per year without a Llama in the herd, and afterwards, he only lost 42. It is still a loss, but one that was greatly reduced. Guard dogs too are a great way to go, but you need the right breed. My sister is part of a program that gives ranchers Anatolian Sheperds so that they stop killing predators so often. These dogs are truly amazing at what they do, and they are very friendly towards people, but always on guard to protect all lifeforms on the farms. In Africa for instance, Cheetahs were being destroyed by ranchers and farmers much like Wolves and Coyotes are being destroyed here, and it got to a point where the Cheetah was almost wiped out. The Anatolian Shepards introduced to those farms have all but eliminated the need to kill Cheetahs in the area, and the populations are once again sustainable because they switched over to their natural prey base due to the fact that they no longer could get access to livestock. Honestly Kit, let me know if your family might want to adopt a Anatolian Shepard, or if they want to know more info, I can readily point them in the right direction. Basically, my point is, killing coyotes might be easy, and it might feel right, but biologically speaking it does not a bit of good for the ecosystem or the rancher in the long run.
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 28, 2004 19:52:17 GMT -5
Also, another important thing I failed to mention would be electric fencing. This of course depends on the size of your land, but it could be useful to surround high use areas with it. One in particualr that is great is this type. These non-lethal techniques are great and very efficient. Here is a great link on environmentally and econimocally sustainable ways to thwart coyotes (with that fence image I posted above): www.cfa-fca.ca/english/publications/wildlife/coyote.htm, and here is that Guard Llama paper I told you about... www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/is/00pubs/00-45.pdf
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Nov 28, 2004 22:46:28 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info crow. I had never heard of a Guard Llama before, that's pretty cool. I think my family would go for that because they're always trying to find new animals to raise. See, they raise all their animals for fun, although we do get good meat from the turkeys (nothing beats a fresh Thanksgiving turkey) and good eggs from the chickens. They do hope to actually get some money out of it eventually, but most it's just for fun.
Only thing is, it's unlikely that it's a bunch of coyotes that are the problem. This usually happens once every couple of years. There is generally one coyote that kills a bunch of animals on our land and our neighbors' land. Usually someone kills the coyote (it's always been one of our neighbors before) and then the problem goes away. It's not as if they're killing a lot of coyotes so I'm not sure it produces more coyote offspring. It does, in fact, seem to solve the problem - at least until another coyote gets it in his head to kill livestock, but that's quite rare and there are generally long periods between these instances. Perhaps on real farms coyotes are a large problem and there are many coyotes killing the livestock, but our neighbors and us only have a small amount of land and a minimal amount of livestock so the problem is less severe. Also, we live in a semi-rural area, so it may be that most coyotes are afraid to come onto our land and these few are the exception to the rule.
I'll send them that llama article though, thanks again. =)
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 29, 2004 0:15:18 GMT -5
Sorry I went kind of overboard there, I wasn't sure of the specifics so I just wrote on the whole nine yards so to speak. Coyotes are a huge deal in my life to say the least. But your right, it does tend to be one Coyote or one Wolf or one Mountain Lion, but unfortunetly a lot of folks just assume it is the entire population to blame. It's not their fault necessarily, there is hundreds of years of predator hatred buried deep in our history, we just have to try and see through to the biological truth and dispell some of those old feelings and myths.
"To many who have heard the ecstatic little prairie wolf greet their camp-fire from out of the dusk, or have arisen at break of dawn and heard their frenzied hymn to the sun, a West without the Coyote seems colorless and flat." - H. E. Anthony
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