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Post by NAU Wildlife Society Admin on Nov 2, 2004 1:29:52 GMT -5
This thread was created so that we could talk about ethics involved in outdoor and wildlife related activites. Hunting Ethics, Fishing Ethics, Birdwatching Ethics are all things that can play a pivitol role in our interaction with the natural world. Do you have your own set of ethics? If so, please share them with us. Do you think ethics are important? Please post a discussion or a debate here about this important (and often forgotten) topic.
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Nov 2, 2004 12:36:06 GMT -5
I hear there have been some nasty arguments about this in the past. ^^
I hate hunting, and personally I don't see how anyone could enjoy the practice of taking a life. I understand the importance of hunting for population control and what not, but why is hunting fun? Sorry, I just don't see what's fun about killing animals. Maybe it's the challenge and art of the hunt and finally getting the kill...but...the reward is taking a life. I see no appeal in that.
But yeah, I know a lot of people don't see it that way. =)
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Nov 2, 2004 16:57:57 GMT -5
*rubbing my hands together as I prepare to reply to this* ;D
First for the emotional response, if animals do not have rights than what difference is it if they are killed? I of course do not really feel this way.
Now for my real response, hunting is so much more than just killing an animal, in fact when I do get drawn and go out if I actually fill my tag than that is just a bonus, what is important about hunting are the bonding experiences that I have with nature and my friends and family, it is the thrill of the stalk, the adrenaline rush you get when you see a large herd of elk of deer or if you lucky enough maybe a bear or mountain lion. Yes, I could experience these feelings without a gun and I often do, but the fact that by taking an animal I put food on mine and family's tables for the better part of the year; and when I do get an animal that becomes my main source of meat, the amount I purchase from the store decreases greatly! Ideally I wish could live in a state that I did not have to be drawn to hunt, where I could take an animal during the season and that be my only source of meat, unfortunately at this time I am stuck here. Kitfox, unless you are a vegetarian, you do the same thing by buying beef, chicken, or pork...you are killing an animal for a food source. I think you are mistaking a very small portion of hunters, those that just like to kill, for the majority of us!
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Nov 2, 2004 17:14:15 GMT -5
Now as far as ethics go, hunters have a great responsibility when they are out there. First and for most is safety of other hunters and by-standers, like homeowners. We as hunters need to make sure what we are shooting at is in fact the animal that it is supposed to be, making sure it is not a person or a doe when our tag is for a buck for instance. Making sure themselves as well as other hunters are not poaching, I know we are not responsible for others actions entirely but the season rarely if ever overlap, so if you know it is deer season and you witness someone shooting an elk, turn them in!! We also need to keep the forests and deserts looking as pristine as humanly possible, which nowadays seems impossible but pick up your trash, stay on determined roads and very importantly if you are hunting in area where there are condors present please use lead-free bullets or pick-up or bury the gut piles...in fact if ever possible and hopefully it will become economically possible, use lead-free all the time!! Hunters by no means have the right to wipe a species of the planet, but I think we do fall into the food chain...we are basically another predator that is helping provide food for their family and controlling a population that if left alone would not be able to support itself. A story I heard regarding this happened right here in Arizona, on the Kaibab Plateau all the predators were wiped out because people wanted to see more deer, well what happened was eventually there were too many deer that the land could not sustain itself and the deer, so they began to perish and predators had to be reintroduced.
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Nov 2, 2004 19:09:18 GMT -5
I figured I'd get a response to this. ^_^ About the animal rights comment; just because I don't believe animals have rights doesn't mean I don't think we have a responsibility to protect them and respect them. I think that the problem with giving them rights is that it can interfere with the rights of humans and puts them on the same level as humans. That I don't agree with. Pretty much my whole family is really big on hunting, btw, so I don't hate hunters or anything like that. And as I mentioned, I do think hunting is necessary and important - and for the reasons you mentioned. The problem I have isn't with hunting as an act (when, of course, it's carried out properly as you explained). My problem - and I guess its less a problem than something I don't understand and can't relate to - is with the "joy of the kill". That just seems like a horrible concept to me - to enjoy killing something - no matter what it is. I do understand the joy of the hunt - tracking the animal, bonding with nature, etc. But killing something just shouldn't be fun, I think. But I suppose it's largely related to the adrenaline rush associated with it. Jumping off a cliff with a parachute probably shouldn't be fun either - but it is (for some people). But again, I'm not against hunting in and of itself. I've had fresh elk on more than on occassion that my grandpa would bring home, and it's delicious. ~_^
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 2, 2004 22:55:28 GMT -5
Wow! You guys are on a roll! I'll just throw something on here real quickly and expand on it later..... The "Joy of Kill" is kind of an inexplainable phenomenon. Even the most compassionate and ethical hunter occasionally cannot deny the thrill, and the joy that follows, when involved in a hunt. And, though alot of folks find this suprising, there are also unexplainable instances in the "joy of the kill" in nature as well. Anyone ever had a cat? But beyond that one, there are numerous accounts of Orcas (Killer Whales) that will kill a seal and then play with it for hours by flipping its corpse through the air with their tail, this even occurs when the seal has not completley died yet. Also, there are accounts of Gorillas commiting "murder" (for lack of a better word) on many other Gorillas and appearing to be very thrilled to do so. No one can say for sure why these things happen, but the "joy" or "thrill" of the kill is not too far-fetched of an argument. Defenitly a philosophical question, if ever one existed. But I don't think those hunters that may feel this actually seek the feeling out. It is something that stirs within a deep and instinctual aspect of us, not something that necessarily inhabits our every waking thought. Of course there are exceptions to this, and trust me, when I get into "varmint" hunting, canned hunts, and live target practice, the gloves are coming off
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Kitfox
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Kitfox on Nov 2, 2004 23:37:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I understand what you're saying Crow. That's a good point, and I think you're right - it probably is a natural feeling brought on by instinct, or even a feeling brought about by being successful. Both, I imagine. That's why I'm avoiding hunting - I'd rather not have that feeling come over me. It would scare me and I think I'd feel bad afterwards.
But even if it's natural, one of the things that seperates us from other animals is an uncanny ability to act seperate from pure instinct. We have this morality thing about us. o.o
Although that could all be derived from some sort of instinct too. That's an interesting topic that I don't know a whole lot about.
I'm not going to judge people who do hunt and enjoy it - that's not what I'm saying this for. It's just not something I'd want to partake in.
Unless you're hunting foxes with the british or something. That'd just make me mad. ~_^
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Nov 3, 2004 11:52:46 GMT -5
I am not going to deny that deep down there is some thrill received when you first pull the trigger but that feeling is far down on the list of reasons of why I hunt that I do not even consider it!
As far as what I said about animal rights, I hope y'all understand that it was just a smart ass remark I said to rile you up!
Crow, man I almost forgot about the Orcas! That was some pretty powerful footage we saw, eh? I know chimpanzees do the same as well, in fact I believe they will even travel great distances in order to kill another tribe!
One point that I would like to ask is; does everyone that is not a vegetarian get some thrill when they cook a great piece of steak? That is also the thrill of the kill, providing food for yourself and your family is a great thrill!!! In fact, I think it is one of man's greatest thrills, throughout history!
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Nov 3, 2004 12:03:15 GMT -5
But even if it's natural, one of the things that seperates us from other animals is an uncanny ability to act seperate from pure instinct. We have this morality thing about us. o.o Although that could all be derived from some sort of instinct too. That's an interesting topic that I don't know a whole lot about. You are right Kit, we do have morality and that is what keeps the majority of us from going on mass murdering sprees, which probably provides those people with a thrill! I know when I last killed a random human it was a thrill!!! ;D ;D Yes, canned hunts are stupid! That is not sport nor does it serve a greater purpose but again thankfully those type of "hunters" make up a very small portion of the population.
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Stinger
Mexican Grey Wolf Member
Cowboy Up!!
Posts: 183
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Post by Stinger on Nov 5, 2004 18:55:01 GMT -5
Here is another reason why hunting is a good thing:
Hunters can take aim at hunger One of the biggest challenges facing hunger relief charities is keeping pace with the increasing number of people in need of assistance. Arizona sportsmen and sportswomen can help the less fortunate this season by sharing their fall harvest through a number of programs tied in with regional and local food banks. One such program is Hunters for the Hungry, administered by the Northern Arizona Food Bank. This Flagstaff-based organization serves communities and rural areas in thousands of square miles over six counties.
“This is a difficult time of year for many people,” says Executive Director Kerry Ketchum. “Winter is approaching. Prices keep going up. A lot of folks, including many working people, are struggling to make ends meet.”
Because some hunters don’t utilize all of the meat of a harvested animal, Ketchum saw an opportunity for hunters to give back to their communities by not letting anything go to waste. He was inspired several years ago after watching a television piece on an organization called Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry, a national program with local operations in more than half the states. He contacted the organization and set up Hunters for the Hungry as an affiliate.
Hunters can contribute to the program by taking their legally taken and properly tagged deer or elk to a participating meat processor, paying to have it inspected and packaged the way they would like for their own use, and then donating a portion to the Northern Arizona Food Bank. More than 15,600 pounds (about 63,000 meal servings) have been donated over the past three years and distributed to local clients and a network of 180 nonprofit agencies. For more information and a list of participating meat processors, visit nafoodbank.org or contact Kerry Ketchum at (928) 526-2211.
Another program that hunters can participate in is Operation: Hunt for the Hungry, which benefits the Arizona Association of Food Banks, a Phoenix-based association made up of eight member food banks and a network of more than 350 affiliated food pantries across the state. Started in 2000 by “Arizona Outdoors” radio hosts Jim and Darla Solomon, the program has brought in more than 12,000 pounds of game meat donated by hunters.
Hunters can participate in Operation: Hunt for the Hungry by donating any game meat that has been processed by a USDA-approved commercial processor to the Arizona Association of Food Banks. For more information, visit azfoodbanks.org, or contact Jim Solomon at (623) 516-7878.
The Tucson-based Safari Club International Foundation has a program called Sportsmen Against Hunger, which is active in all 50 states, in Canada, and in several countries around the world. Nearly 250 million meals a year are served worldwide through this program.
Arizona hunters can contribute to the program by donating harvested game at participating meat processors, or they can bring their commercially processed game donations to participating hunger relief organizations. The foundation maintains a database of participating processors and organizations on its web site. For more information, visit safariclubfoundation.org or contact Allyson Garcia at (520) 620-1220, ext. 480.
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 7, 2004 13:21:51 GMT -5
That's cool man, if its used right, it should do a lot of good. My brother (when he used to live in Alaska) would hunt deer for some of the older folks in his community who could no longer hunt. Up there, they stilldepend heavily on the hunt to see them through the hard seasons. There are many other places in North America that still depend on the hunt too, places along the Ozark and Appalacian mountain ranges and also many, many tribes in Canada too.
I was going to tell ya'all that I put up some links to sites with codes of ethics for everything from hunting to birdwatching, fly fishing to scientific research. Its on the links page of the Wildlife Society website, just scroll all the way down if your interested in checking them out. It's pretty interesting stuff.
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Post by eaglewoman on Nov 7, 2004 18:48:43 GMT -5
You know, their are a lot of interesting things being said here. I appreciate the comments.
Eagle
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Post by Chromiusdomius on Nov 18, 2004 23:41:11 GMT -5
Hello and Good Day! ;D
As hunters, before we even think about venturing off in to the beautiful wilderness that has been given to us we should have a strong set of ethic to in our heart. This is true not only for hunting, but for everything that we do in life. Our ethics, greatly, define who and what we are as individuals. The ethics that we live by should make us proud of who we are. It seems to me that all of you have strong ethics!
I am a hunter; however, I would not say that I am the most successful hunter in town. First and foremost, when I go hunting, my main priority is to create a great memory of time spent in the great outdoors with family and friends. The times spent with family,friends, or even alone walking through the woods listening to a babbling brook, listening to birds singing, or lying back staring into the sky as a thunderstorm rolls in without the sound of passing cars and the stress of work sitting on my shoulders are the times most cherrish. Sitting back and watching a troutie make his way down stream or watching a doe prance through the woods with her fawn is just as rewarding as finding finding that big ol' buck to fill that tag at the end of deer season.
I can certainly understand that hunting is not for everybody and that is fine. However, I hope that those that do not take part in hunting give me and my fellow hunters the same respect that my hunting partners and myself give to non-hunters. Stinger mention that going to the store and buying a steak to through on the grill is not far from hunting. I would have to say that I'd rather hunt for my meat. Knowing that cows have been bred in mass just to be slain and packaged for these huge grocery stores is more upsetting to me. At least wild animals have a quality of life until they face thier end day. Though it may seem some what brutle and unfortunate, we do sit atop the food chain and we have been there since long before grocery stores. Hunting is a huge part of our heritage and evolution. Unfortunately, some people take hunting to a psychotic extreme and I don't care to associate with them. To feel good about hunting and proud of the skills that allow you to supply a hearty meal for your family is natural in my opinion.
Anyways, time to stop. I'm getting tired and I can barely remember what I just typed. I look forward to making more posts regarding this topic. It is a fun and interesting topic.
Good night Wildlifers!
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Post by Whiskey Jack on Nov 19, 2004 15:24:38 GMT -5
Man Chrom, its good to have you back! Nice post! I was wondering if you all had heard about this new internet hunting scheme? I heard it on the radio the other day, and even saw a clip of it on the news. Here is a link to a interview with the guy trying to set it up... www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4177186Basically, a gun is hooked up to a robotic mechanism, and you can control gun movement and pull the trigger from a computer across the country. Right now it is only available for target practicing, but the guy wants to be able to have it so you could shoot exotic game on his land, for a price of course. To me, this is pretty far-fetched, and I have to admit that it seems to cheapen life. What do you all think?
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Post by Chromiusdomius on Nov 25, 2004 23:56:41 GMT -5
I just read an article on a website in regard to the online hunting deal. I have to agree with you. It does cheapen life and the entire hunting experience. In my book, I wouldn't even consider that hunting. The technology used to implicate such an event is very intriging but the bottom line is that it is not really hunting. It's totally lame!!
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